[FuN]ivor-bigone Banned as of April 20th 2013

People Who Have Been Banned
OrangUtang

Re: [FuN]ivor-bigone Banned as of April 20th 2013

Unread post by OrangUtang »

Don't get me wrong here, I love a good discussion as long if it's done respectful.
NATAN wrote:Its a comon fact that everyone who get banned puts the finger on to other players not following rules instead of pointing that finger to theirself. Unfortunately you dont seem to be an exception to that rule.
I don't think he's pointing fingers:
[FuN]ivor-bigone wrote:Having been kicked twice over the few days I really saw this coming so there was no surprise to see this ban appear in your forums.
and..
[FuN]ivor-bigone wrote:OK the rules were still broken but no harm was done and there was no complaints from anyone.This stopped as far as I'm concerned as the server got populated.
and..
[FuN]ivor-bigone wrote:Ive played on your server since God was a lad and never had issues like this before but I stand here and recognize I was in the wrong and take it on the chin.
I think what Ivor is saying is that your rules aren't clear enough and to put it frank, I understand where he's coming from.

A small history lesson:

I have been a Game-Director on FraggedNation for about a year from 2011 to 2012 when Ivor took it over around Aug, 2012. I'm quite sure that he recognizes the fact that people will ALWAYS find loopholes in the rules if they aren't clear enough (and for that matter, {DOU}Tommy would too). I'm quite sure you, as an admin from a server, will find that too.

No matter where you go, not even inside Unreal Tournament, people will find loopholes if the rules aren't clear. The example Ivor-Bigone had written down is one of these: you will almost always find a kick from an admin from the server when you leave your x-loc out, but the rules don't state it's illegal to put your x-loc out. It states it's illegal to put your x-loc out to hunt for frags or otherwise get a frag. (This <------- is open for interpretation).

Let me put it to you straight: If the rules aren't clear enough, people will complain in here about your rules and join the long list of 'well-respected-players-but-banned-on-the-DOU-server', because your rules aren't clear. Your rules should be clear from the start, and not 'Oh you didn't ask for clarification, so you'll receive a life-long ban anyway'.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I'm not appealing against or for Ivor on this matter, I'm just trying to make it clear that some of your rules needs to be re-written or re-looked at and which I try to bring to you respectfully. I think this is where it went wrong with Ivor's ban: misintpretation (although I wasn't there on the server at the time so I wouldn't know the exact situation). I hope you understand.
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NATAN
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Re: [FuN]ivor-bigone Banned as of April 20th 2013

Unread post by NATAN »

Ivor has a security thread on him dating back to August 2nd 2012.

He has been warned by admins many times. Only now he has been banned he seems to be able to write about the subject.

He came to talk on TS when he was kicked. I'll give him credit for doing so. Most of the times he did admit he was in the wrong. However at this point its just a bit too little too late.

With pointing fingers I'm reffering to -quote- "Well everyone who plays on your server breaks the rule because the way they are wrote doesn’t make any sense".

The point is that not Everyone is breaking the rules and this topic is about him and not about everyone else.

Also, even if no-one on the server is complaining we still long from our guests that they're playing according the rules.

About the rules. Its just as simple as you say. People will always find loopholes no matter how clear the rules are made.
We dont want to turn it into a 'small novel' recording a hundred pages.

Dont get me wrong on this and I do appriciate your input in this matter.

Players who have questions about our rules can always sign up to the forum and get them cleared out if they want.
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.:Isabella:.
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Re: [FuN]ivor-bigone Banned as of April 20th 2013

Unread post by .:Isabella:. »

I agree with Natan, and very appreciate your input here OrangUtang. :D
We will do the effort to write our rules in a better and understandable way.
You know the problem: Things go slow here.
If it were up to me, I would re-write the rules tomorrow...
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{DOU}Cygnus
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Re: [FuN]ivor-bigone Banned as of April 20th 2013

Unread post by {DOU}Cygnus »

OrangUtang wrote:
[FuN]ivor-bigone wrote:Having been kicked twice over the few days I really saw this coming so there was no surprise to see this ban appear in your forums.
He saw this coming but did nothing to prevent it. IMO that means he has no interest in following the rules.
OrangUtang wrote:

No matter where you go, not even inside Unreal Tournament, people will find loopholes if the rules aren't clear. The example Ivor-Bigone had written down is one of these: you will almost always find a kick from an admin from the server when you leave your x-loc out, but the rules don't state it's illegal to put your x-loc out. It states it's illegal to put your x-loc out to hunt for frags or otherwise get a frag.
"it's illegal to put your x-loc out to hunt for frags or otherwise get a frag."
So where's the loophole? It say's it all right there.

I think our rules as stated are fine.
The only people who have problems with them are the type of players who are trying to push the intent of the rules to the limits and beyond. They understand the sprit of our rules but are trying to find ways around them to suit their R&G style.
When they get caught enough and banned we get what you have been reading in this post.
I don't and won't buy into their bullshit.
The bottom line is that there was all kinds of opportunity to prevent the banning. If Ivor was sincere at all about following the rules he would have taken advantage of that opportunity instead taking advantage of those who were trying to camp.
OrangUtang

Re: [FuN]ivor-bigone Banned as of April 20th 2013

Unread post by OrangUtang »

Alright Cygnus, because you asked.. :)
{DOU}Cygnus wrote:
OrangUtang wrote:No matter where you go, not even inside Unreal Tournament, people will find loopholes if the rules aren't clear. The example Ivor-Bigone had written down is one of these: you will almost always find a kick from an admin from the server when you leave your x-loc out, but the rules don't state it's illegal to put your x-loc out. It states it's illegal to put your x-loc out to hunt for frags or otherwise get a frag.
"it's illegal to put your x-loc out to hunt for frags or otherwise get a frag."
So where's the loophole? It say's it all right there.
You missed the last sentence of that part, it said:
OrangUtang wrote:The example Ivor-Bigone had written down is one of these: you will almost always find a kick from an admin from the server when you leave your x-loc out, but the rules don't state it's illegal to put your x-loc out. It states it's illegal to put your x-loc out to hunt for frags or otherwise get a frag. (This <------- is open for interpretation).
Let me break it down for you right here.

8) No dropping trans to hunt or otherwise get a frag. This has come up many times recently and been the cause of many problems. Players that drop their trans disc to hunt will be kicked.

There is a difference. You can leave your x-loc out as an 'offensive' way to play and 'defensive' way of play.

Offensive:
- Leaving your x-loc out and go to another part of the room/map to find other people. This is called hunting or Run 'n Gunning. (I'm sure you would agree, right?).

Defensive:
- Leaving your x-loc out and find boots, armour, health.
- Leaving your x-loc out (for example behind a picture in 3ommiesResort) and camp next to the picture, moving back behind the picture when getting shot.

If you want to define 'Run and Gun', then we could simply say it's moving with the intention to find frags. Notice I don't use the word 'hunt' here, because 'hunting' is open for interpretation. One may find someone 'hunting' a way different definition than some one else.


Here's a definition for you, taken from a Ladder on FraggedNation.com:
Running and Gunning (RnG) and Hunting are defined as follows:

[*]No run and gun play: Run and Gun and Hunting are defined as excessive movement and/or transing with the intent to find opponents instead of trying to get to a sniper spot.
[*]Constant swirly hopping is considered excessive movement.
[*]You have to camp for at least 2min (of course you can camp the whole map at one spot) in a spot without movement. Anyone moving without circumstance will be penalized for excessive movement.
[*]IF you decide to move you have 10seconds to trans/stealth/run to another spot or you will be penalized for excessive movement.
As you can see:
- First a definition
- Then a time-table for it (less than 2min in one spot is excessive movement)
- Then a set time-table for the max. movement (so you don't trans all the way to another room/part of the map.

And then it goes on with legal movement (legal movement is where a player like (link:) -=SoP=-Medic has been banned for):
Circumstantial movement is legal and defined as:
* You have shot and killed a sniper and feel your spot is jeopardized/in danger.
* You just finished a shoot-out, close or far, and your enemy has fled his spot.
* A spawner has discovered your position accidentally, left, and you feel your spot is in danger.
* You are under fire and must move for protection and in search of another camping spot.
* You have camped a spot for at least two minutes, it's totally unproductive and you feel this won't change on its own.
* Large map with multiple rooms, game moving slow and unproductive, plus the 2 minute time gauge.
* Large map, 4v4, and the game is slow and unproductive, plus the 2 minute time gauge.
* Instructed to do so by ref

{DOU}Cygnus wrote:I think our rules as stated are fine.
The only people who have problems with them are the type of players who are trying to push the intent of the rules to the limits and beyond. They understand the sprit of our rules but are trying to find ways around them to suit their R&G style. (..)
(I intentionally didn't use the last part of your quote for my next part because it was irrelevant).

What is Hunting? What is Spawn-Killing? What is Run and Gunning? It's not written in your rules, so it must be open for interpretation. And as you say, the rules are fine the way they are. So when I move to another spot because I'm getting shot/under heavy attack, I must be Run and Gunning. You can ban about 70% of the experienced UT-player if that's the case, because most of them aren't a sitting duck when they get shot, they go duck into cover (and that is running/transing so it must be RnG).

Based on your rules it's allowed to image-drop, abuse the HideNPeek (like some {DOU}-members do), spawn-kill with a deemer, hog the deemer-spot (like some {DOU}members do), etc. because the rules are fine the way they are.

As you can see I'm only trying to be the Devils Advocate here, I'm trying to put the rules under your nose and say 'Hey, you're really sure they're OK the way they are?'.

If you don't want to put it in a small novel, fine. But don't say some people are abusing the fact that the rules aren't clear. Turn it the other way around: The rules aren't clear enough and that's why people may find loopholes.

:peace_v: to all.
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NATAN
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Re: [FuN]ivor-bigone Banned as of April 20th 2013

Unread post by NATAN »

8) No dropping trans to hunt or otherwise get a frag. This has come up many times recently and been the cause of many problems.

The main word here is 'or otherwise'.
Leaving your x-loc out is just entirely forbidden. If you leave your x-loc behind a picture and are getting frags your're not using the x-loc according to our rules (as in 'or otherwise get a frag').


Players that drop their trans disc to hunt will be kicked.
As speaks for itself.

If you want to run a few steps to get some boots or recover some health, fine.
Just like it says 'run a few steps'. So dont leave your x-loc at the spot with the boots or health.


If an admin decides you are doing otherwise you will be booted. This is a camping server and we do not want that type of game play here.
Clearest part of the rule. If an Admin decides your using the x-loc otherwise than stated above you will be booted. We will not boot immediately and warnings will be given, but just as like in -=SoP=-Medic's case, when a players has been warned for many times, over and over again, he will be booted.


-=SoP=- Medic has not been banned for legal movement. Your stating the rules of FN in this matter and not our sniperrules. Our rules are different from theirs.

As I pointed out in the -=SoP=-Medic ban thread:
The fact that we are a hardcore camping server means that we dont alow to much movement. In his story (and yours) he defends himself by saying he only moves after each kill to avoid getting killed. This means that, when winning a game by 30 frags (no deaths), you have moved to another spot 30 times in 20 minutes playtime, or even more in a shorter period.

Now, thats not camping the way we like to see on our server.


Personally I do understand your point of view on this matter and I have to agree that some rules could be written much better. Especially for the ones out there who are trying to bend them into their own. I like the example your giving us with the FN sniper rules.
I will look further in to this matter and see what can be done here.
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