O.K. people. This post may make me a bit un-popular for a bit, but it has been a long time in coming. I am clan leader, so it is my job to make this post regardless of it's outcome. One way or another I think the clan will be changing in a major way as a result of this post.
Please understand that right now all we are doing is talking. No action will be taken in away with anything for the time being. It is very important for everybody to post their thoughts and comments here
I'll just get right to it. This clan has completely lost it's focus. I do believe I am the one to blame for this so I will not be laying it on other people. When I created DOU I had in mind a specific type of team, and this is not what we have become. It is my fault for letting things get out of hand, and now it is my responsibility to try to find a solution to this.
Of course what I am refering to is the fact that we have become a clan of 2 different types of players, We have our normal snipers and we have our bolt-action players. However, at this time I do not think we can call ourselves a sniping / camping clan. The problem with being a clan of 2 different types (in this case) is that the two seem to be incompatible.
It is probably obvious to most of you that I am not a big fan of the bolt action server. It just isn't my thing. Like I said, it isn't the clan that I started or the game that I play. When it first went up it was a mistake for me to even let it go up because of the long standing rule that the clan would have no two servers that competed with each other for traffic. To be honest I didn't think that people intended for it to be a primary server. But it is now up and popular to a degree so we have a situation. However, I must state that the popularity of the server has been artifically inflated. Another rule that has been around as long as DOU has been around is that no members may drive traffic from one server to another. I have been reading the logs lately on the sniper server and see that 3 of our clan members have made it a habit of driving traffic from the sniper server to the bolt action server. When they see people in the sniper server, they jump in and tell these people to go to the bolt action server. I also have an inbox full of complaints about this on my forum account. The result of this is that the sniper server is empty and people are moved to the bolt server to have a game.
I have a lot more to say here, but to keep things straight, I will say that I believe what I have said above is fact, and what I am about to say is opinion. It may or may not be right, but for now it is opinion.
The bolt action server in my opinion is what I call a "flavor of the month" server. The flavor may last longer than a month, but I am sure you all get the metaphor. Let me explain why I think this is so. When we started out we had a sniper server. Then a few people got restless so we also put up a redeemer server. When this happened, for awhile people drove traffic from the sniper server to the redeemer server and the sniper server suffered. Then when the novelty of the redeemer server wore off people came back to the sniper server. Then people got restless again and the uzi was added and thus a multiserver was born. I will admit I liked the uzi (it was my idea) as I thought it would be a nice distraction. Then the uzi appeal wore off and everybody was back to the sniper server after all the traffic was removed from it. What a drag. Then came jail break. Same deal. Then came Freeze Tag. Same deal. Then came UT2k4. Same deal. Then came the instagib server. Same deal. NOw we have the bolt action server. Same deal? I think it might as without even talking to me it would appear as though a new game type was added to the multiserver. Every time this happens the sniper server, our flagship server, suffers. The server gets to the point where it is about the most popular camping server online, just to have the traffic driven off of it like it is now.
Forgetting about the fact that I am not a big fan of the game type myself, here are some other concerns that I have. First, I hate to say this but I think playing on that server has serisouly diminished the camping skill of a large percentage of the clan. When playing other DOU members on the sniper server I have noticed this. I think I am a pretty good player, but I do not think I am *THAT* good. I think that other members are just not as good as they used to be. Next, I think that the server is attracting people to it that we would be better off not having around. A few weeks ago when the FraggedNation pre-season meeting took place, DOU received high praise from the entire community on how good and honest of campers we are. It was mentioned that ref's not even need be around when we play. Now I hear that during the last DOU Vs. Cops match, the cops people complained about us running and gunning too much, and I find out it was a valid complaint. This is coming from Cops, the undesirable element I hinted to just a moment ago. To further add insult to injury, the bolt server now has to run an anti-run mod. How embarrassing is that for DOU when it's own members can't even follow our rules? Then I hear our own members complaining about the SID because it is costing them too many points. I bet you can all guess how I feel about this. And we are about to start season 5 of the FN ladder. We were in last place in all 4 of the previous seasons, the thought of us being in last place again this season really has my unhappy but I do feel we are less of a team then in the past.
Back to the facts.
Right about now I guess many of you are thinking that you know where this is going. But it isn't. In fairness it looks like there is a very large percentage of the clan who would be pretty unhappy if we got rid of the bolt action server so I am not going to demand it. I have actually been thinking about this for over a month now and I have come up with what I think are the only 3 ways that this can go. All 3 are extreme, but 1 only extreme just to me.
In a nutshell here they are:
01) We do in fact trim down on the other servers and get back to basics. By basics I mean regular sniping / camping like we all used to play. I think this will be the most unpopular of the choices as a lot of people would be resentful if we dropped the bolt server.
02) We split the clan up. The people who prefer the bolt action style of play will form a new clan. Since people from both sides of the isle have made donations and this will be a major transition, we would share the dedicated server for a period of time (like a year), but have our own forums and websites, etc. We are all still friends I hope, so nobody would hang anybody out to dry.
03) I take a break from all of this for awhile, and then later form a new clan myself. I would take a break so as to avoid a large amount of people here from splitting off with me. When I started DOU it was me, but it has become us. But it is still my creation, and I do not want to cause it any harm.
If anyone has a #4 that I have not thought about, please post it below.
As you may all have noticed, I have some pretty strong feelings about this. I think a few of you knew this was coming as well. It is my hope however, that we can discuss this in a civilized manner and find a resolution that we will all be happy with. We're all still friends here so everybody just talk it out. Nobody needs to feel uncomfortable talking with me or anyone else about all of this. I sincerely hope that everybody in the clan pipes in and discusses this. To that end I will be mass-mailing a notice about this thread to the entire clan and also ask that everybody mention this to all clan members when they see them. Let's make sure everybody knows about this thread.
It's my fault that this is where it is now. I saw it coming a few months ago but did nothing. Had I at least said something back then, we may have had other options but I let it slide.
Tommy
Bolt - Action is sniper/camping. It just hasn't been policed properly. Bolt action if played properly is way more sniper/camper than playing with a full auto gun. And people still come into the full-auto server and run N gun now and then too and we just police it (and you know DOU goofs around in there too from time to time)
I guess I'm not sure why you think BA isn't sniper/camper and why you almost seem eager to split the clan up or start a new clan? Seems there is something more going on.
Just my impression from your post.
Hermskii
And my opinion is that having the Clan play in the FN ladder has done more to hurt the clan than to help it. It seems to lead to conflict and frustration within the clan and with others. And when you're constantly playing out-right cheaters and others who bend the rules or push them to the limits, then that starts to rub off and otherwise honest players will start to push the boundaries as well just to try and compete with a level playing field.
I think if the clan lost it's focus, it was when we got involved in FN in the first place.
Hermskii
OK can't we just all get along 😈
No really I haven't played the BA much ,but to me it isn't the game type or even the game that i enjoy its the ppl that Ive been playing with for the last year.
In my opinion I dont think any of us are true campers ,even in FN matches alot of members move from place to place ,and especially on our on sniper server(which maybe we need the Sid mutator on).
To get to where you would like the clan to be maybe we need to take a step back and start policing each other to become a sniper clan
I have no problem of someone telling me if I'm doing something wrong on one of the servers .
But this little problem shouldn't be something that breaks the clan apart ,each of us have stood by you and Clan DOU through all that has happen over the last year
I have a #4
I am guilty of moving around too much at bolt action, I apologize.
Don't divide the clan. You should probably put me on probation or something like that to set an example.
And if I/they do it again, ban them/me from DOU
Wave
O.K., It looks like I could have expressed myself better, sorry for that.
I may have criticized a few people for running, etc. but that was not the point of it all.
I guess I can state it as such: I don't like the bolt action server but many other people do. Therein lies the problem. I don't want to be a dick and tell everybody it is my way or the highway, but at the same time it's not the clan I started and not the one I am having fun with. I don't want people to be offended by what I am saying either, I don't really feel like anybody is doing anything to me. But I am just not enjoying this any longer this way and a few other people don't as well. So we really have a situation here that needs to be addressed. To those who have said that they will camp more or whatever else really doesn't address the problem because that may be a problem, but not the one I think that needs to be worked out.
I do also like the group of people called DOU and am not eager to tear it apart really. But if splitting it up makes more people happy then it is an option. But we are still in the discussion part of this, I have no plans to do anything right now.
Tommy
i say leave it up if it is the "flavor of the month"then itll be over with and ppl will be back to the sniper server.
I do believe that it and the sniper server should be policed more .
maybe there should be a rules section in the DOU only forum for the servers and clan related things,and if the rules get broke start using some kind of punishment ,temp ban from server rule breaking might get the point across :shock:,and maybe so kind of probation period for clan rules
again just my opinion
Sup Yall,
WIth my life being what it is these days I do not have the time for a full camping/sniping game be it regular sniper or bolt-action. I really LOVE the Uzi mod as it is all I have time for thsese days. I have a full time job and a 1 and 3 year old with a 100 mile a day round trip commute. I try to get some sniping in when I can. No better pick-me-up than hearing "HEAD SHOT!" on your speakers. I have never actually played on the bolt-action server.
I can understand that things have drifted off point and it is time to reel things back in. I have not been a major participant in clan doings due to the reasons I have stated above.
Tommy has to do what he feels is right since DOU is his "baby" and he is not liking the direction things are going. I will always be thankful for these servers and the people I have "met" through Clan DOU. I hope to keep up with them regardless of the outcome of the clan. You have to do what you have to do Tommy.
My 2 cents.
Take care yall, will await the outcome.
"{DOU}.:cHiCkEn/ wrote: And my opinion is that having the Clan play in the FN ladder has done more to hurt the clan than to help it. It seems to lead to conflict and frustration within the clan and with others. And when you're constantly playing out-right cheaters and others who bend the rules or push them to the limits, then that starts to rub off and otherwise honest players will start to push the boundaries as well just to try and compete with a level playing field.
I think if the clan lost it's focus, it was when we got involved in FN in the first place.
Hear Hear! or is that Here here....Whatever.
I agree with Chicken on this one. Heck, I LOVE the FN matches, but I feel that I have to do some moving to compete. When we do not, then we get picked off left and right.
Back on topic, Tommy. You have a LOT of responsibilities now with the clan and being FN Admin. Are you being stretched too thin?
I like the BA server much better than the regular sniper server. As far as extra movement, I actually camp harder there because of the "You miss you die" factor. But it is also harder to hit a moving target, so I see where you are coming from.
Personally, I think that playing on the other servers (think TKK and OMA) has hurt my camping. These folks run like Estonian Chickens with their heads cut off. To compete, you HAVE to move around. There is no way that I can do what they do, but I try while on their servers.
One other thing that I want to mention. One time while playing, you mentioned that there was an "art" to camping. You have stressed this on several occasions. Yet you have never taught me what you were doing or how you were doing it. Perhaps you could help us out by showing us what we need to do. I for one would love to learn some of the tactics that you use because they work for you. You are no doubt one of the best campers on the team. By sharing your knowledge, I believe that you will elevate this team to new levels.
I miss the times that I have had playing. Now that the spring season is mostly over, I hope to be able to play and practice more often. I want this team to take a trophy home from FN and I also want DOU to be the premiere UT clan. I believe that Tommy has the clans best interest at heart and I will support any decision that he (you) make.
My .02 for what it is worth.
I'm not gonna jump and pick a choice, 'cause I preferable don't really like any of them. But I would have to agree with Tommy's facts. I haven't played much lately 🙁 (sorry about that), So I shouldn't have much say it what is happening. But I think it is wrong that people from our own clan are driving away popularity from the Sniping Server to the Blot Action Server, it just amazes me that our own clan would do that. I also personally don't like the game either; I don't know how most of you can find it entertaining. When I do play I usually jump in the Sniper Server, but I'll get bored playing by my lonesome, so I normally hope on some other camping server. If I do get on the Bolt Action, it's for a maximum of 10 minutes, and then I leave. I'm with Pebcak though; Uzi to me is a lot better (when people are on). But I still really enjoy the Sniper Server best overall. With this subject I have to agree with Tommy, even though the options aren't good outcomes.
Only the dead see the end of war.
It's sad to see things come to this as I love all different game types. I understand how this isn't becoming the clan you had in mind tommy, but it has become bigger and in some ways better. I feel it's these flavor of the month mods that keep ut fresh and fun, something I think needs to happen for a game of its age. I have met some great people due to these flavor of the month mods that I don't think I would have met elsewhere. These mods may have slowed traffic on the full auto server for a while but I feel it is also giving us a stronger presence in the ut community as the place to be for a game, which in turn hopefully keeps them interested and playing ut99 longer, I hope this game never dies! I know it's not my place to say what way things should go but I wish it could stay a community for all kinds of gamers not just one. I know this is your child Tommy so it should be as you like.
I came to {DOU} as a complete noob!LOL. What fun it was getting my ass handed to me. I have learned so much from everyone here and made good friends also. What a great place to be! As my gaming has progressed my play has changed also, I must say I am guilty of moving too much on our servers also for this I apologize, I find now that I'm not so much a hardcore camper. It is the more freestyle game style that I wish to pursue further. I noticed that i was running and promoting not the right game play on our servers so I have avoided {DOU} servers unless it was just Draco Death and some C-oPs. I know when its late night and its was just myself and some cops things would get a little out of hand with the running and feel bad if I in any way I took part in leading their clan to believe that it was ok to play an aggressive game like that. I apologize.I don't want to tread on anyone toes as I love {DOU} and everyone in the clan. I feel that I will become a thorn in {DOU}'s side when it goes back to basics and some hard camping, so regrettably this is my last post as a member of {DOU}. I hope I am still allowed to come to ts to chew the fat as I will always consider this as my home. Thanks Mama for bringing me in to the clan! Thanks Tommy for the opportunity to be a part of something as great as {DOU}. Out of all the clans this I feel is the most upright and respectable places to be. I'll see you all around and happy fraggin!
WOW looks like there is a division I play where the people are personally so I think I'm gonna sit on the fence on this one for a bit. 😈
Get a taste of religion...lick a witch!
I can't speak for anybody else here but the main reason I haven't been around the sniper server much anymore is because somebody changed the damage settings on the rifle. A long shot on a dark map makes for some frustration if the bot or player is under spawn protection and you're dead after two hits because the rifle fires so fast. It was much more fun under the old settings IMO.
As to the shifting of players from the sniper server to the BA server, I don't know anything about that since I haven't been around the servers that much lately.
The future of DOU......I am primarily a camper and should the clan split I'll go where the camping is.
My most memorable moments as a member of DOU have been just hanging the sniper server or DOU vs DOU matches. I have to agree with Chicken that DOU getting involved with FN has caused some frustration and angst. I personally don't care if we play in another FN tourney but I will be there if I am available and needed.
A note to Dim......"last post as a member of DOU"?.....don't bail on us just yet....wait 'til the dust from all this settles and then make a decision. Nobody knows for certain where all this is going just yet.
My measley .02...
-JB
Well even though I don't play much right now, I still read every post, and do some stuff in the back ground. So I will throw my thoughts into the fire.
Pulling people from our Main Server to another is just crap, even if it is our server they are being pulled to. It should never have been done and cannot in any way be condoned. If someone came in from another clan and did that all hell would have been raised. It is not fair to our members who camp or the people who come here to have a good campy game to have people solicited away.
Originally having A different style server was a good thing because it brought more traffic to our servers. We got some great talented additions to the family through this. But when we start loosing traffic on the main server. I can see where something has to be done. I don't really know if there is a solution, and we are already loosing members over this. I don't think any of the options are good but I will respect what ever Tommy has to do.
The problem with having a "flavor of the month" server is that it distracts us from what we all came here for. Good campy fun. Even when people do get tired of the new server and come back we have just made a new flavor and started the cycle again. Thus we have kept our main server attendance low. We are a sniping/camping clan and our focus should be there.
To address the running, we should never allow it. Period If we are in the server alone ( no non members) that is one thing, but as long as there is anyone else there we should never condone R & G. If you want to R & G go to a server that promotes that. Just don't bring it here. How can we police others when we cannot control ourselves.
As far as the FN tourneys are concerned I think they did help {DOU}. To say otherwise would be a falsehood. We are now recognized as some of the best campers out there. This is really how people have found out about us. We have the respect and recognition of many of the "top notch" clans out there. I am very proud of that fact.
And yes I get frustrated and want to put a real bullet into the head of the butt head that just transed across the map to venge kill me. And yes I would like to smack the crap out of the cheaters. But as long as FN is moving in the right direction I will stay involved.
It can never ever be as bad as the first season. I know WE are the reason it changed. {DOU} has had and continues to have a major roll in the progress and future success of FN
I am probably the most hard core camper here. I have been playing since UT came out and until finding the great people here hung out with LOL and FBI most of the time. I have played the other styles and found them not to my liking.
I joined a sniping/camping clan not a Deemer, Uzi, BA, or any other type of clan, A sniping clan. The fact is, we all joined a sniping clan.
First, a few more things need to be clarified.
#1 - Dim, I think you may be over-reacting here. If you really want to quit DOU then let Yo Mama or Cygnus know. But I recommend that you wait it out for a bit first.
People, please don't tell me that after these 3 plus years that the minute someone brings up something serious to be discussed that everything will start to crumble. I thought we were stronger than that. By the fact that Team Speak is empty tonight I am beginning to wonder though.
#2 - The idea wasn't so much to discuss the running going on in the BA server. That is a problem that should be addressed, but not the main purpose of this. The intended game type of the BA server is in fact camping / sniping.
#3 - The purpose which seems to be lost is that I just don't care for it (and some others don't as well). Re-read my original posts to see why.
Lets all relax a bit and just talk it out. That is the only purpose of this.
Tommy
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